Then why all this stuff about “A true martyr baths in the glory and knowledge that their cause is just and true.”?

And the random stuff about Navalniy? What do you even mean?

I don’t have the right to judge Snowden for this?

https://images2.imgbox.com/60/c1/qA3S0gar_o.png

This is not promoting russian propaganda? Is he not calling for millions of my fellow citizens to be subject to yoke of russian occupation?

You know nothing about me.

But please, feel free to keep LARPing as some sort of deep and empathetic individual.

Thank you for the kind words and support for Ukraine. It genuinely means a lot to me. We are having this back and forth and banter, but this a real point that means a lot.

I believe he was going to LATAM and he couldn’t continue while transiting through russia. But that’s beside the point. For me personally, I question his motives wrt revealing data on US surveillance following his collaboration with the russians. All local digital services (mobile phones, ISP, social media, streaming) are under the direct supervision their security services. It’s basically like the USSR. You can literally get 5 years in jail for social media post, sure this really become more common after 2022. But even back in 2012, they were well on their with establishing a digital surveillance regime.

Sure, it’s legitimate to criticize anything. But without taking all the circumstances into account, the critique loses relevance. At least for me it does, and that’s what I’m arguing.

Why is his collaborating with the russians not a fair circumstance to take in account? If he is being forced to work with them, then shouldn’t we disregard what he says as being suspect? Aren’t there better spokespersons for the FOSS/digital privacy movement that can be promoted instead?

And we’re back in the discussion at hand :) the only consequences I can think of, that comes from Snowden collaboration is the propaganda tool he is now, and the intelligence he had to offer 11 years ago. Disregard him to mitigate the propaganda consequences.

He is almost certainly trying to leverage his fame and influence to promote russian security services goals; i.e. try to sow discord in the US. Their approach is multi-dimensional; for example in europe they were involved with green organizations in order to counteract the possibility of a rise in shale gas production in Europe. That’s why it’s best to not give any attention to Snowden; he is a russian tool. I would even speculate that he has internalized a lot of their goals (he is a russian citizen after all).

I don’t think that I’m putting Snowden on a pedestal. All I’m saying is that, like everyone else in Russia, who have a public profile, Snowden knows that he can either toe the party line, or plunge to his death from a basement window. What we really need to do, is to realize that anything coming from the mouths of anybody in Russia, is the result of a proverbial gun to their heads and should be treated thusly.

While this is true, people most definitely put Snowden on the pedestal and do not critically approach his statements.

He chose to collaborate with them and promote their propaganda goals.

He could have refused.

While RMS does come off as provincial and somewhat delusional, he is a very smart and forward-looking fellow. I agree with his take on big corporation, privacy, freedom.

What I don’t agree with is promoting Snowden as a messenger for RMS’ viewpoints. You can’t have it both ways; he can’t be both forced to collaborate with the russians for his “survival” and be open in his statements. There are many other folks worth promoting who share RMS’ viewpoints.

There isn’t such a thing as “good surveillance”, or “better surveillance”, if you do surveillance you can’t pretend a position of moral superiority to others who do the same, even if you still don’t chase people who say certain things online, it’s on the horizon. Thanks to Snowden sacrifice we know some of the USA government surveillance. He didn’t “back down at the first sign of trouble”, what he did made him lose the life he had, I’d like to see you in his position.

This is where you have a very primitive and parochial take. Getting sent to jail via kangaroo court for a relatively moderate social media post is far more damaging than the impact of western surveillance. If you don’t understand this you are lost.

He did back down at the first sign of trouble. He chose to work with the russian security services when things got rough. He had other choices, go back to the US, refuse to work with the russians and just let them know that he would prefer to keep quiet.

You seem to have a very “hollywood” interpretation of russian security services. Yes, they are brutal, but their propaganda/communication outreach is not some “star wars antagonist” type bullshit. They see value in Snowden, simply executing him or even sending him to jail would undermine this value for them.

Keep LARPing buddy!

Nah, your logic is virtue signalling.

You don’t want compromised inviduals promoting your points; there are many other who have a measure of consistency in their beliefs and don’t back down (to a regime that makes US surveillance seem like a walk in the park) at the first sign of trouble.

If you don’t want to make such choices, then don’t get involved in activism. It’s very simple.

Assange has also worked directly on russian payroll (he had a program on RT) and has basically admitted that he supports russian imperialism (not in such an explicit manner, but we are all adults here). Not to mention he had no issues undermining the safety of whole multitude of people in his leaks as part of his quest for fame.

Snowden knew (or should have known) what he is signing up for. Collaborating with the russians (whose internal control of local internet services and jailing of people for social media posts makes the US look reasonable and human rights focused) is not right.

And even from a pragmatic standpoint; let’s say I believed all the stories about Snowden not having any other options (I speculate that he actually supports russian imperialism and their methods); why should anything he says be given any attention?

Tomorrow the russians might tell him that he needs to promote that Stallman is evil pedophile and Adobe are a great company. You’re saying he will suddenly reject their orders and refuse to execute them?

What is your logic here?

Then don’t collaborate with the russians.

There is no reason to believe this would be the case, see Chelsea Manning.

He could have return to the US. Instead he chose to help the russians; why do feel that he is beyond criticism for this?

Yes, he could indeed. He could be the metaphorical guy with the bags standing in front of a line tanks. But why should he?

He can make his choices. And we can evaluate them and label him as a hypocrite and mouthpiece of the russian security services.

If you insist on applying a purely theoretical analysis, on the actions of a very real person with very real concerns for his safety, then I think I’ve found the problem with this discussion. You can’t lift this problem to this level of abstract theoretical morality.

But to answer your question more clearly: no, I don’t see how this perceived hypocrisy could be important for others.

Do you sincerely believe, that Snowden should have stayed put and faced a firing squad for whistle blowing? Snowden is trying to survive, and if daddy Putin says “go on TV and say these lines”, then the sentence doesn’t have to end with “or else”. Snowden did what he had to do for his country, by telling the public about the surveillance, now he’s paying for it. Why should Snowden be fighting for the Russian people as well?

Cut the bullshit with “very real concerns” and all that jazz. It is not convincing. No one is asking him to fight for the russian people. What I am saying is it is legitimate to criticize him and highlight his collaboration with the russians.

Well let me tell you as someone living in Ukraine (and was born in Donbas with my hometown being occupied in 2014 and relatives having to leave everything because of the russian occupation); you’re just playing dumb. You full well know that there are real consequences from Snowden’s collaboration with the russians.

I brought up “theory” to try and engage with you. To highlight the possibility that there are other perspectives and your thinking might be parochial.

Trying to survive is fair. But putting him on the pedestal and labelling him as “untouchable saviour who can do wrong” is not normal.

Believe it or not but my first paragraph is actually relevant to the matter at hand; as I mentioned earlier, you seem to be ignorant.

The part where he is genuine about “Stallman is right”. If you want to promote FOSS, oppose technology monopolies and keep user freedoms, you want to do it in an effective manner. Not reference know collaborators who promote the agenda of a regime that cares not about FOSS or user freedoms.

He has been directly collaborating with russian security services via his internet outreach. I don’t know if you know russian or know anything about their propaganda initiatives (both current and its ideological roots), but this is pretty obvious from his messaging. I disagree with your characterization as a fallacious argument; you seem to be ignorant of the matters at hand. Honestly, you seem concerned that someone dared criticize an individual that you seem to venerate.

You don’t see any issue (in context of technology-focused discussion) of highlighting his endorsement of FOSS while ignoring that he works for a regime that has absolute surveillance powers over local digital services and routinely jails people for social media posts?

He could have chosen to not collaborate with the russians and refused to act as their mouthpiece (For example, he was hardcore promoting the “russia is not going to invade” rhetoric before Feb 24; a key element of russia’s short term communication strategy at that point).

There are many people in russia (both well known dissidents and just average people) who refused to toe the government’s line or even in some cases took direct action against the regime.

Don’t you see the irony of Snowden focusing on “spying in the US”, while also choosing to work with the russian regime that has absolute control over local digital services and arrests people for social media posts and Twitch stream?

This might not a big deal for you, but on a purely theoretical level, you don’t see how this hypocrisy could be important for others?

Edward Snowden cannot be trusted.

He was all high and mighty with respect to leaks in the US (arguably relevant and justified), but immediately folded when things got real and decided to collaborate with the Russians (arguably one of the most brutal fucked regimes both currently and historically).

It’s an interesting dynamic where the ransomware groups have to be reliable and professional for their business model to work.

Oh wow, I did not read the source Reuters article and yeah it’s a Chinese project.

This is the kind of stuff that should make Americans evaluate whether their orthodox and somewhat parochial approach to “free speech” (the polemical definition as opposed to the broad concept) needs updating to reflect modern realities.

Even before AI and digitization, there were many examples of how an American interpretation of free speech was clearly lacking, but this AI spam and strategic methods used by russia/China are going to make these deficiencies a much more pressing matter.

Fair point. I guess this was more of a casual post, so I didn’t think too much about it.

I would have preferred if they switched to new keyboard model in version 8.x by default.

I am a relatively light Linux user. Raspberry Pi headless via DietPi/Debian for NAS/Media server/torrents/PiHole and some experiments with self hosted services on major cloud services. I prefer to stick to defaults whenever possible.

I think there are times when it is more relevant, e.g. initial change from a feudal/agrarian model to industrialization. By all accounts this was perhaps the biggest, most impactful change in human history.

One could argue that we are now witnessing a similar transition with respect to the information age.

At any rate, this was a somewhat glib statement on my part. :)