As the title states I am confused on this matter. The way I see it, the USA has a two party system and in the next few weeks they’re either going to have Trump or Harris as president, come inauguration day. With this in mind doesn’t it make sense to vote for the person least likely to escalate the situation even more.
Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election and then who knows what crazy stuff he will allow, or encourage, Israel to get away with.
I really don’t get the logic. As sure nobody wants to vote for a party allowing these heinous crimes to be committed, but given you’re getting one of them shouldn’t you be voting for the one that will be the least horrible of the two.
Please don’t come at me with pro-Israeli rhetoric as this isn’t the post for that, I’m asking about why people would make such choices and I’m not up for debate on the Middle East, on this post, you can DM me for that.
Edit: Bedtime here now so will respond to incoming comments in the morning, love starting the day with an inbox full 😊.
Edit 2: This blew up, it’s a little overwhelming right now but I do intent on replying to everybody that took the time to comment. Just need to get in the right headspace.
Like I said, I’m asking out of curiosity, not to make a point, so this is not whataboutism. 👍 I’m a European citizen so I can’t influence anything, I’m just trying to learn here.
Then let me provide some context. Trump and Harris are both hawks who fully and unconditionally support arming Israel and slaughtering people in the Middle East. The same was true in 2020, when it Biden v Trump, in 2016, when it was Clinton v Trump, in 2012 when it was Obama v Romney, in 2008 when it was Obama v McCain, in 2004 when it was Kerry v Bush, and arguably even in 2000 when it was Gore v Bush
Those of us who are doves have been waiting for over 20 years for a candidate who isn’t an extremist hawk who wants to commit mass slaughter on the other side of the world, where it can safely be kept out of sight and out of mind. Neither party has ever delivered on that. The military-industrial complex is extremely large and extremely lucrative for politicians, and it has only gotten larger and more influential under Biden - as well as being much more deadly than ever, with what’s happening in Gaza.
We’ll never just be handed a choice to get in the way of that system, but it absolutely must end. The only ways of accomplishing that are 1) forcing politicians to oppose it by making our votes conditional on that issue, or 2) building our own party from the ground up that’s committed to opposing it. Otherwise we will keep seeking out new conflicts until we end up kicking off WWIII, and ofc in the meantime it will be impossible to fix the numerous crippling domestic issues we’re facing because so much of our money is tied up in bombs.
Very interesting.
But hold on, I was under the impression that the government donates military materials to Israel. What do they stand to gain financially or politically from supporting Israel, really? This is what I don’t get, honestly and genuinely.
There’s a difference between the government’s interests and the interests of individual politicians. Politicians don’t have access to public funds, in the same way they have access to the money in their bank accounts, so public funds must be transferred into the private sector. The easiest way to do this is through military contractors like Raytheon and Lockheed Martin. There’s a rampant and widespread conflict of interest where politicians give those companies lucrative contracts and the companies have various ways of giving them kickbacks. All the politicians have to do then is to sell the public on spending more on the military.
As long as the companies are paid, it doesn’t matter whether the money is coming from domestic taxpayers or from other countries. In the case of Israel, there are also various lobbying groups focused on that issue who can also reward politicians from doing what they want. So yes the US government may be giving the weapons away for free, but the individual politicians are getting paid, so what do they care?
Before the 90’s, it was easy to do that because they could just point to the Soviet Union as a threat (even though we massively outspent them even then). During the 90’s, there was a period of relative peace, which was a crisis for the shareholders, and there was some expectation that the bloated military budget could be cut, since the primary threat is was supposedly there to counter disappeared. But with 9/11, they found a new threat to justify it. Once those wars wound down, then it became China, Russia, and Hamas. If if weren’t them, it would be something else, and if they couldn’t find something else they’d simply create it. There must always be some existential threat to justify the spending, or else the war profiteers stand to lose a lot of money.
How are you asking out of curiosity when you already seem to know what Trumps’s stance is on?
I don’t know, I’m just speculating. I’d like to find out though. Why is my curiosity under investigation, lol?
Yeah a bit. It looks a bit like an act. Being based in Europe doesn’t exactly mean much in terms of understanding world politics.
In my case, it means I’m not trying to debate with anyone or sway opinions. And it means I’m not following statements made by American politicians very much. So that’s why I’m hoping someone who is kind and knows more will tell me. Someone already has, so I’m satisfied here. 🙂
If you still think I’m acting, so be it. 🫡
Yeah, I find it hard to believe. Declaring innocence at each sentence is a red flag. I don’t personally care, but I can’t get myself to believe you either.
What is there to be “guilty” of? What is this obsession of yours? I’m just confused here… I’m saying I don’t know Trump’s stance on Israel, and would like to know what it is, and you’re claiming I’m “guilty” of actually knowing that but I’m pretending not to know? Do you hear how absurd that sounds? Why would I do that?
Please tell me I’m misunderstanding what your claims are here.
No one said anything about guilt. Just innocence.
I don’t think you are misunderstanding anything.
And I don’t know why people do weird stuff like pretend not to know something to “bait Americans” into a discussion. Maybe they get off from it.
There’s no “innocence” without the implication of some form of guilt. Simple concept.
So you are seriously thinking I have some sort of agenda that I want to “bait Americans” into some kind of discussion where I get off (sexually?) on this. That’s the gist of it?
Have you heard of Occam’s Razor? Have you considered that it might just be the way I’m actually telling you? That I’m just curious about what Trump’s stance on Israel is, like I told you? Why is that so implausible to you?
You seem to be getting off on this conspiratorial thinking waaay more than I am, IMO. Because I’ll tell you, I am loathing this conversation with you. 😕
It’s the way you dramatize it and declare innocence at every step that makes this a red flag. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t personally care, I just can’t get myself to believe you. The whole Europe thing looks like you are baiting Americans into the discussion.
I’m based in Europe and I am yet to meet anyone ever who still needs to speculate about Trump’s stance on stuff.
Anyway I hope you enjoy the discussion.
That’s… pretty much what I’m trying to do, yes. I’m trying to get an American (probably), who knows what Trump’s stance on Israel is. But other nationalities are also fine, just as long as they know the answer. I was just curious. But if it comes with all these preposterous accusations, I’d rather Google it. Otherwise I like to have conversations with humans rather than ask Google. It’s more fun. More social.
🤷♂️
And I like to have conversations with people who don’t bait others into a debate by playing innocent.
🤷
Anyway no harm done, and I’m just a “fellow European” so I’m not the target here.
Seems like you’re Palestinian. That might explain why you are possibly thinking irrationally about this add this is a very sensitive subject for you. But please try to act rationally. I’m not talking about the conflict. I’m pro Palestine/against war/conflict. But try to act reasonably. Stop putting words into my mouth and accusing me of shit. (Also Palestine is not in Europe. But maybe you’re an assimilated migrant to another country by now.)
Well, let’s hope you don’t find someone like that. 🙄 Good day.