If the Russians didn’t want more countries in NATO, then they shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine. It’s not “imperialism” or “russophobia” for Finland to be afraid of a Russian invasion.
NATO shouldn’t have expanded beyond the former DDR to provoke Russia
Never forget that NATO was collaborating with Nazis and performing false flag terrorist operations in Europe after WW2 to instill red panic and install pro-US leaders.
The cold war is over
NATO is still collaborating with Nazis to this day. You can’t see a single picture from Ukraine that doesn’t have a Nazi patch and Canada recently gave a standing ovation for a “Ukrainian war hero” who, uh oh, was a general for the waffen SS. I mean, what do you expect from an institution literally started by a Nazi? The fact that people still choose not to see it leads me to the most regrettable of conclusions.
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Literally shut the fuck up. Do you seriously have dick-all for media literacy? How are people still falling for this…?
I’m so fucking sick of this bullshit. I know it isn’t true, but please for the love of god tell me the reason you’re saying this is because you’re a bad faith nazi, I would honestly prefer that over yet another shit-for-brains white liberal who passively believes everything they’re hear on the TV.
EDIT: You know what? That was way too aggro, i’m just fucking exhausted. I should have just asked you your stance on Israel so you could reveal yourself as being a being a massive monster to the moderators. That would have been the correct play.
Go educate yourself: https://youtu.be/exJ024Zdzdk
I am a Swedish social democrat, and this video is by Sarcasmitron on YouTube, who is also a social democrat.
And yes, the US’s veto on the UN cease-fire resolution was their biggest foreign policy mistake in 2023.
It is not bannable on lemmy.ml for communists to think I’m a “liberal”, and I would end my monthly donations to Dessalines and Nutomic if it was.
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Ever wondered why all of those countries wanted to join NATO?
Based on what? NATO gave non-expansion assurances to USSR and Russia has been pretty adamant they are not the successor to the USSR. There’s no reasonable explanation why NATO shouldn’t have expanded into the former soviet states. After all those states wanted NATO to expand there.
Maybe Russia should’ve done a better job being a partner to the former soviet states. With the exception of Belarus Russia doesn’t have any positive relations in eastern europe, and even Belarus is a huge exception because Lukashenko can’t stay in power without Russia. The only former ally Russia had was Ukraine and we all know how that went for Ukraine. Russia is a huge threat to the sovereignty of those countries and Russia has had zero interest in having good relations with those countries. Is it really any wonder those countries fled under the banner of NATO? I don’t think so.
Also Russia is the top promoter of NATO. The article mentions how Sweden and Finland have maintained neutrality for over half a century. They could’ve joined NATO any time they wanted and they didn’t. But then Putin threatened both countries and within months both countries decided to join NATO. You have to go into some conspiracy theory mode to ignore the obvious cause and effect here. I will say with 100% certainty that if Russia had not invaded Ukraine and Putin had not threatened Sweden and Finland then neither country would’ve taken any steps towards joining NATO. Because why should they, why take the obligations if there’s no threat to defend yourself from?
In fact let’s not forget that prior to the Ukraine invasion the sentiment was moving towards whether NATO is even necessary anymore. Maybe 10 years from now NATO would’ve dissolved all by itself. But we won’t know that now because the invasion of Ukraine has been a signal to countries that NATO is still necessary. Russia’s actions are keeping NATO alive.
If Ukraine is of any indication the only thing NATO has done to Russia is prevent them from invading the Baltics and Poland. Do you really think that’s a bad thing?
Why shouldn’t former DDR countries sign a defensive pact? Why would Russia not want them to do that?
Since that ‘defensive pact’ was specifically created to serve as America’s spearhead against the USSR
Spearhead against what? The USSR attacking other countries?
Name one Western European country the Soviets attacked without provocation
Why specifically western? Because Russia attacked like the whole eastern Europe without provocation?
former DDR countries
when you definitely know what you’re talking about
this is the former DDR country, singular
Why would Russia not want them to do that?
Because NATO agreed not to? Because they expect agreements to be upheld?
You’re right I have no idea what DDR means in the context of countries or geopolitics.
As for the claim that NATO wouldn’t expand past the DDR, all I could find were sources that say it was an oral agreement between the US and the USSR. I don’t see why the USSR (now Russia) should get to decide what unions eastern European countries decide to join, especially since after the collapse of the Warsaw pact said countries were no longer part of a defensive pact.
https://www.france24.com/en/russia/20220130-did-nato-betray-russia-by-expanding-to-the-east
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You’re both right
Sure, it was a dumb move because it angered Russia, but it’s not a reason to murder civilians.
Ukraine murdered civilians in the eastern half of the country since the euromaiden coup, breaking the Minsk Agreements multiple times
No they did not.
Also, it’s not a coup if the president abdicates.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/22/ukraine-tymoshenko-president-protests
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Not just Ukraine, they invaded Georgia in 2008 and are currently creating a breakaway region in Moldova just like before the invasions of both Ukraine and Georgia.
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FYI, this lemmy community is pro-Russian, I got banned for saying that the Ukrainian government wasn’t run by nazis. Go to [email protected] instead.
I don’t think the Scandinavian/Nordic countries were ever actually neutral or non aligned/committed. Even during the 2006 NATO Red Flag military drills, Sweeden was committed to taking the side of “the West” should a NATO country be attacked. This position was made public by having four Gripen military fighter jets participate in the NATO manoeuvre Red Flag back then, where an attack on a NATO country is used as a scenario to test combat readiness. The Gripen jets were even made fully compatible with NATO standards during the manoeuvre. Denmark sent troops to Iraq.
So there is only a surrendering of official/public non committance/neutrality, as in reality Nordic countries have made their commitment to being NATO aligned quite clear over the past few decades.
Sweden sent troops to Afghanistan too, iirc
In hindsight both should’ve joined earlier. But we believed Russia had changed and they wouldn’t actually invade a country in Europe. Proved us wrong.
Russia has done more for NATO than the US has done
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What do you mean?
Such a mask off moment to be afraid of Russian aggression after they invaded Ukraine.
“Wait, actions have consequences?” - Russia, probably.
Even ignoring the Ukraine war, was there any possible path for Russia to become militarily aligned with Nordic countries? Countries such as Sweeden, even if they were publicly neutral, have made their position quite clear that they were NATO aligned by participating in NATO military drills since 2006 and integrating with NATO military standards. Thus the Ukraine war has just made these unofficial/more private alignments towards NATO by the Nordic countries public. The writing has been on the wall for decades now with the military alignment of the Nordic countries. The Ukraine war just sped up the timeline.
Even ignoring the Ukraine war, was there any possible path for Russia to become militarily aligned with Nordic countries?
Yes. Simple: Stop being Europe’s black sheep. Advance, politically, past imperial ambitions. Sweden ruled Finland for nearly 700 yet the two get along splendidly, how is that?
Russia was doing a ton of trade in Europe and Finland especially before the invasion of Ukraine. So yea, if Russia had not been doing invasions since like 2008 they would have been in a position to be trusted for military cooperation but their actions taken against neighboring countris has made their other neighbors quite scared of who might be next and thus they allign with NATO for protection. So, yea, the path was not doing invasions and building trust through trade and cooperation.
If there were any advantages to doing so, why not? The issue is there are no advantages and myriad disadvantages to aligning with Russia, if you believe you’re a democratic state.
Why would any democratic state want to align with a totalitarian state unless it was the only option?
Why would any democratic state want to align with a totalitarian state unless it was the only option
So why are they aligning with the USA? The candidate with the most votes has lost 1/3 of US elections in the 21st century, there was an effective judicial coup in 2000, and an attempted coup in 2020. Where has the US and their collective partners ever supported democracy? There was support fascist forces in the Balkans, integration of Eastern Europe into the EU not as equals, but as an effective semi-colony of major Western and Central European countries, similar to the relations between the USA and Latin America. In the global south, through the support of reactionary forces such as political Islam and through direct military intervention, the US has been complicit in the wholesale destruction of societies, as illustrated by Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya. I have not even mentioned the situation in Israel, where the USA is actively supporting an apartheid state in Israel and giving them the bombs and ammunition to commit genocide. I have not even mentioned the neo colonialism of the the powerful western and central European countries in Africa.
In what way is any of this democratic by “the West” or the USA? To me, this is the pinnacle of reaction, not progressive or democratic. The true answer to your question has nothing to do with democracy, and rather lies the the first part of your own statement, the Nordic countries think that it is more advantageous to align with “the West” than Russia militarily, and perceive this to be better for their own self interests.
flawed democracy =/= dictatorship.
Putin has been rigging elections and violating the constitution for over a decade at this point.
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They’re aligning with the US because the other party they could have aligned with has annexed their other ally once already, and then launched a full scale invasion to take more in the last 10 years.
You can say what you want about American democracy and probably be right - but it’s more little d democratic than Russia is currently by leaps and bounds.
One does not need to look at a Supreme Court ruling as a coup to see a dictator at work in Russia.
So why are they aligning with the USA?
They’re really not they’re primarily aligning with the EU which they, you know, are members of. And while EU and US certainly don’t look eye to eye on many issues we’re also not going to go to war with each other any time soon. Not that either side would have any chance invading the other anyway.
“I can excuse the literal Third Reich and Italian fascism but I draw the line at the Russian invasion of Ukraine”
“You can excuse the Third Reich??”
It says something. Not sure what.
that some folks genuinely believe the same people were running the nordics 70 years ago, apparently
Probably that there are an entirely different set of people making the decision now, ya know, cuz of death and birth and time stuff
Well they can kiss their unions goodbye in about a decade.
NATO is a military alliance, not an economic pact.
Nothing is ever in a bubble.
Sure, but why would a military alliance be of any greater consequence than, say, membership in the European Union?
Because the EU is a loose collection of liberal nations, while NATO was literally started by a nazi to spread anticommunism.
Man that was a hoot.
I think the official neutrality already ended with joining the EU.
As a Pole I smirk at historic neutrality of Sweden after they decided to go over the Baltic and raid half of Poland to the ground in the 17th century.
USA! USA! USA!
Honestly the congratulations from this all go to Russia. Support for NATO never reached 50% prior to this in Finland and it was Russia attacking Ukraine that managed to do what decades and decades of pro-NATO side couldn’t. Almost overnight NATO became really really popular.
Good job, I guess. A real 4D chess move.
Nordic countries are getting colonized.
Willingly too
*looks at Ukraine*
Right, it’s us who are getting colonized…
That’s what happens to idiots who think that US has their interests at heard and will protect them. In case you still haven’t figured it out, it doesn’t end well.
So far has stopped Russia. If it’s a rock that keeps the tigers away, that seems like a rock worth having. Could also bash them with the rock if Russia comes invading, I suppose. Not like it takes something away from independent defence.
Stopped Russia from doing what exactly?
More like stopping that from ever happening again.
US is literally building their own bases there. That’s the definition of being colonized. You’re just happy they’re getting colonized by the right people because you’re racist.
Where are they building their bases in Finland or Sweden?
New Defense Agreement Gives US Access to Several Military Areas in Finnish Lapland
It will give American forces access to 15 military bases and exercise areas on Finnish soil. Five of these are in Lapland, Northern Finland.
oh good you can read and even bold things, have a ⭐
You deduce that I’m racist based on one single post that indicates that they may want to avoid future attacks from Russia?
There was no potential for any attacks from Russia, and no reason for Russia to attack these countries. So yes, your premise of Asiatic hordes invading Europe further underscores my point.
Just like Georgia, Ukraine and now Moldova I guess… Also Russia is slavic, not asian. It’s also pretty racist to lump all of Asia as one culture or ethnicity.
Asia was never brought up in the conversation. Unsure why you feel the need to misrepresent my words.
Those articles are archaic. Very strange to assume that everyone will have seen those and then use them as a vehicle of attack.
